Small sample size but looks like we got a defensive upgrade for left field. Let’s see if they let him play or if he is just another platoon player. Hopefully the relievers work out. Cano looked good last night but in the past he has not been able to embrace the role of closer. Let’s see how it works out. Nice to see Grayson looking more like his self.
I understand what you are saying about the pitching currency Steve, just seems convoluted instead of getting what you really need. But I guess you have to work with availability and what trading partners need. I have lost a lot of faith in the Elias team to trust they will make good use of that currency however.
Rebuild absolutely failed because we didn't tank for 4 years to have 2 good regular seasons then suck again. Which is why I loved our trade deadline but we will never win anything with Elias
If you strikeout a lot, can't play D and fail in the clutch Mike has a job for you
I don't know. You would think that over time they would have fully developed to their natural level. But it's true, these guys were rushed to the majors. Holliday should definitely have been in the minors a lot longer.
Well said Steve. Team still has some chance to get in the playoffs. Hopefully, they will add the needed pieces in the off season and get a new experienced manager to lead them.
The rebuild didn't fail. Injuries and over hype of players failed. Time to take a good look on how we do things and change things around to get the injuries and hype better. Go Birds.
We need defense up the middle. I have been for trading Gunnar. Should we also look to trade Holliday to perhaps the Malins and try for Lopez and or Edwards? Both would be major improvements with the glove and the bat.
Gunnar to the Yankees I have been suggesting looks to be over. Lombard Jr is already having positive impact for the Yankees. I would have liked to move Jim this deadline. Not sure what team we match with this offseason that would trade a bunch PLUS think they can extend him.
Many reasons injuries etc, but yes a failure that your window of being competitive closed so quickly and back under .500 again for this and last year. Now, can we develop the guys acquired(not trade them off), trade Gunnar for another mega haul this winter and be above .500 again in 2 years. I am optimistic that can happen with Irish, Aloy, the 2 pitchers plus the few we had in minors, Booth and others.
Steve, not to quibble with the details here but I wouldn’t call having 7 of the 50 rostered players left from the 2023 roster as having “Most of that young core, of course, is still here”. If you simply mean Henderson, Bradish and Cowser perhaps, but the reality is, without coming out and saying it, Elias is dismantling the team he built and trying to “retool” the once promising Orioles. Until the league provides a pennant for winning the top farm system position, I for one, would prefer to focus on the major league team and spare the euphoria of the promises of tomorrow. That’s what rebuilding teams do.
Well that is a quibble as you are counting the entire roster. As I said most of the young core. That's CORE is still here. 3 you mentioned plus Holliday, Mayo, Beavers, Westburg. Not dismantling to me and they are not rebuilding either. Just go back and review how many players are under team control and for how long to see that. They traded Adley, Wells and Kremer. I guess we could say maybe the last 2 are part of the young core if we want and then added Young among young core still here.
Still in WC hunt so let’s see if this group can step up and get us in, long shot but would be awesome if we could have something positive to finish on and maybe even win a playoff spot 😳. Our hitting philosophy has to change, can anyone hit .280? Like Mattingly told his players we have to play better and so with the Birds we have to play better- timely hitting, sound defense and situational baseball- you are professionals please play like one and please someone tell Gunnar to stop throwing his bat and making faces every time he gets out which is 8 out of every 10 at bats
The tortured saga of this team's "failure to launch" defies rational explanation. I probably spend too much time thinking about this as it is. Since none of us are in the locker room when the media isn't present, or the team plane, or in the dugout during the games we won't ever really know.
Here's some guesswork/opinions from me;
- these kids were overhyped when they were coming up
- the Major League Hitting and Pitching Coaches have come up way short
- HUGE mistake in not bringing in a seasoned and successful Manager. Someone like Joe Maddon or even Joe Girardi would surely have helped these young guys when they were first coming up. This is one of the biggest blunders of Mike Elias in his time here. Hyde was over his skis from the beginning. Albernaz is so overmatched with every element of his job it's embarrassing to watch.
- clearly Adley didn't want to be here. Can the same be said of some other "stars"? Looking at you Gunnar. I have the distinct spidey sense that he would rather be on certain other teams than the Orioles.
- something seems to have been missing in all the space age metrics that they developed in the warehouse in evaluating players; grit, fire, determination to improve, to win. These guys take losing too easy. We don't have a leader, someone who says through his actions "we have to come back and win this game" and gets the clutch hit, makes the throw, takes the extra base, steals a base when needed. We haven't had an Adam Jones, a Brett Gardner, a Ben Zobrist, a Yandy Diaz, a Dustin Pedroia...these guys are essential to all winning teams. Every time they played us they found ways to beat us. Why don't we have one now? We have wealthy young guys who bring their Lego sets to the Clubhouse....WTH!! Maybe these guys are too soft, have too much money and lack competitive fire. Ever seen them get into a fight w another team? Me neither....
Man I really disagree on both managers. I think Alby is fine considering the injs and underperformance of this team.
As for Hyde, he inheritered completey terrible and took them to 101 wins and the AL East sooner than expected. Many of the young guys were playing pretty well on his watch. Over his skis? I didn't see anything close to that.
So if we want to hang our hats on 2023-24. It bears mentioning, how many of the players on that roster were part of the old regime (Santander, Mullins, Mountcastle, Hays, Kramer, etc.). Also, we went from 2018-2022 with a roster full of placeholders and AAAAers vice major leaguers.
I’ve said it before but, from what I understood of the rebuild, it was a stripping of the team, down to the studs, and fundamentally changing the way business in Baltimore was done. Good drafting, better Latin American presence/scouting, and better data management.
Trades: Give credit for trades that brought Bradish to Baltimore for Dylan Bundy. That took guts. But who else? Baz and Rogers are great but both were costly in terms of talent surrendered (and I’d eat my hat if the Marlins wouldn’t have taken Kjerstad instead of Stowers).
Drafting: Adley was great, and I would have picked him too, but let’s be honest, if he hadn’t been drafted first, he’d have been drafted second, so I wouldn’t call that a great feat of scouting. Gunnar? That’s a shot and a score. All 30 other teams passed on him. Same with Westburg. But beyond that, have the Orioles drafted anyone who you could say is performing at a consistently high level? Holliday, Beavers, and Cowser have talent, but are still not living up to expectations. Meanwhile, Kjerstad, Hunneycutt, and Bradfield all appear to be misses.
International scouting: Basallo is a gem. But I would think it takes more than 1 player to be able to to claim the Orioles have parlayed their International operation into a meaningful talent pipeline
Data: Nobody really knows because clubs rightly keep secrets but, IF you believe the Orioles have the talent to compete, the fact they’re not shows other clubs are still a few steps ahead in cracking the analytics code.
At the end, if our “to the studs” rebuild only netted 5 or 6 standout players and only two mediocre playoff runs and now it’s time to start over, I’d say the rebuild was a failure.
Except they inherited well over 100 losses, the studs were already missing, literally I guess we could say. And this is no starting over. Not with Bradish, Baz, Young, Alonso, Gunnar, Basallo and on and on.
We need OF help both with defense and the bat. We need to figure out if Gunnar stays or goes. Solve those 2 things and I think this team will be ready again next year IMO. I will add Holliday is swinging for fence again and pulling off. Needs to get back to what he did a week or 2 ago. Hit other way.
Team is doing what they need to do to get back to playoff baseball. . Added Alonzo and Ward last winter. What we all thought would help. Players underperformed plus injuries caused another tough season. . But that is baseball. . We do still act like a small market team though. . But glad to see an acknowledgment that pitching is important. Tough division but no more excuses. . Is someone lying about the amount of money available? Please no more swing and miss draft picks.
Not at all in fact they spend in the middle of the pack of baseball with more room to grow. You think they gave out 155M to Pete but can't/won't spend? If you are planning on them spending like the LAD or Mets you will always be disappointed however.
The rebuild was sold to fans as perennial contenders. Just to judge since Rutschman was drafted in 2019 it’s been 3 very bad seasons, 3 good seasons, and now 2 bad seasons. Prospects may have been a little overhyped, may be underdeveloped, probably some of both. Development is not linear and when The Core didn’t all turn into playoff success at the same time, someone gets traded. The Core learned a hard lesson but a necessary one. The only way to keep the band together is win.
I don’t see this trade deadline as a rebuild as much as a reset. The rotation is intact. Alonso is still here. Henderson and Holliday are here for another year at least.
I was sold a yearly contender but now have magic playoff spurts mixed with more frequent duds, the same as it ever was.
I don't think you were sold anything. The goal was to be a a perennial contender and build it once. They did built an elite talent pipeline, I know they did, because for a couple of years I covered a first for me in Baltimore - A no. 1 farm. Now that young talent didn't do enough and they took the largest piece and traded him. But this is not starting over despite some insisting it is. We can say anything we want and some fans have over the last 2 days, that doesn't make it so. This is not directed at your comment, but all of them collectively.
I am with you that this trade deadline was not a rebuild. I consider it a reset, so maybe that is semantics for you. I think this team can still contend as is and with the caveat of a couple pieces plus current players simply playing better. Where I will differ from you though is I think Elias did try and convince the fans to follow along during the lean years. My impression was Elias asked for patience, that the liftoff was coming, starting with 1-1 Rutschman. Maybe Elias spoke poorly or I took it wrongly.
But I am here for it. I look forward to following your takes. Have to admit through all the doom and gloom you look at the bright side. It helps keep me sane after social media hot takes.
Steve, this is the most cogent, rational overview of the rebuild and what came after that I have seen.
Thank you Patrick.
Small sample size but looks like we got a defensive upgrade for left field. Let’s see if they let him play or if he is just another platoon player. Hopefully the relievers work out. Cano looked good last night but in the past he has not been able to embrace the role of closer. Let’s see how it works out. Nice to see Grayson looking more like his self.
I understand what you are saying about the pitching currency Steve, just seems convoluted instead of getting what you really need. But I guess you have to work with availability and what trading partners need. I have lost a lot of faith in the Elias team to trust they will make good use of that currency however.
Well they once produced 3 straight winning seasons, 101 wins, a div championship and two playoff apps.
Rebuild absolutely failed because we didn't tank for 4 years to have 2 good regular seasons then suck again. Which is why I loved our trade deadline but we will never win anything with Elias
If you strikeout a lot, can't play D and fail in the clutch Mike has a job for you
I would venture to say the young core form those drafts were overrated.
Adley - Good ballplayer but not the best player in that draft and certainly not a 1/1 pick.
Gunnar - Two bad years in a row. It's now unclear if he's really that good.
Westburg - Will we ever know how good he is?
Kjerstad - Clearly a failure of a first round pick.
Cowser - Another failure. Can he turn it around?
Holliday - Promising but again not a 1/1 draft pick.
In all these cases, these supposed stars have proven to be less than projected.
I will caveat this by saying they are still young and could in time reach mature to be better but currently disappointments.
Overrated or poor development?
I don't know. You would think that over time they would have fully developed to their natural level. But it's true, these guys were rushed to the majors. Holliday should definitely have been in the minors a lot longer.
Well said Steve. Team still has some chance to get in the playoffs. Hopefully, they will add the needed pieces in the off season and get a new experienced manager to lead them.
Go Os !
The rebuild didn't fail. Injuries and over hype of players failed. Time to take a good look on how we do things and change things around to get the injuries and hype better. Go Birds.
We need defense up the middle. I have been for trading Gunnar. Should we also look to trade Holliday to perhaps the Malins and try for Lopez and or Edwards? Both would be major improvements with the glove and the bat.
Gunnar to the Yankees I have been suggesting looks to be over. Lombard Jr is already having positive impact for the Yankees. I would have liked to move Jim this deadline. Not sure what team we match with this offseason that would trade a bunch PLUS think they can extend him.
Many reasons injuries etc, but yes a failure that your window of being competitive closed so quickly and back under .500 again for this and last year. Now, can we develop the guys acquired(not trade them off), trade Gunnar for another mega haul this winter and be above .500 again in 2 years. I am optimistic that can happen with Irish, Aloy, the 2 pitchers plus the few we had in minors, Booth and others.
Steve, not to quibble with the details here but I wouldn’t call having 7 of the 50 rostered players left from the 2023 roster as having “Most of that young core, of course, is still here”. If you simply mean Henderson, Bradish and Cowser perhaps, but the reality is, without coming out and saying it, Elias is dismantling the team he built and trying to “retool” the once promising Orioles. Until the league provides a pennant for winning the top farm system position, I for one, would prefer to focus on the major league team and spare the euphoria of the promises of tomorrow. That’s what rebuilding teams do.
Well that is a quibble as you are counting the entire roster. As I said most of the young core. That's CORE is still here. 3 you mentioned plus Holliday, Mayo, Beavers, Westburg. Not dismantling to me and they are not rebuilding either. Just go back and review how many players are under team control and for how long to see that. They traded Adley, Wells and Kremer. I guess we could say maybe the last 2 are part of the young core if we want and then added Young among young core still here.
Rebuild 1.0 is over. Welcome to the ABC O’s. Alonso, Bradish, Baz, Basallo and Cano are now the core.
Still in WC hunt so let’s see if this group can step up and get us in, long shot but would be awesome if we could have something positive to finish on and maybe even win a playoff spot 😳. Our hitting philosophy has to change, can anyone hit .280? Like Mattingly told his players we have to play better and so with the Birds we have to play better- timely hitting, sound defense and situational baseball- you are professionals please play like one and please someone tell Gunnar to stop throwing his bat and making faces every time he gets out which is 8 out of every 10 at bats
The tortured saga of this team's "failure to launch" defies rational explanation. I probably spend too much time thinking about this as it is. Since none of us are in the locker room when the media isn't present, or the team plane, or in the dugout during the games we won't ever really know.
Here's some guesswork/opinions from me;
- these kids were overhyped when they were coming up
- the Major League Hitting and Pitching Coaches have come up way short
- HUGE mistake in not bringing in a seasoned and successful Manager. Someone like Joe Maddon or even Joe Girardi would surely have helped these young guys when they were first coming up. This is one of the biggest blunders of Mike Elias in his time here. Hyde was over his skis from the beginning. Albernaz is so overmatched with every element of his job it's embarrassing to watch.
- clearly Adley didn't want to be here. Can the same be said of some other "stars"? Looking at you Gunnar. I have the distinct spidey sense that he would rather be on certain other teams than the Orioles.
- something seems to have been missing in all the space age metrics that they developed in the warehouse in evaluating players; grit, fire, determination to improve, to win. These guys take losing too easy. We don't have a leader, someone who says through his actions "we have to come back and win this game" and gets the clutch hit, makes the throw, takes the extra base, steals a base when needed. We haven't had an Adam Jones, a Brett Gardner, a Ben Zobrist, a Yandy Diaz, a Dustin Pedroia...these guys are essential to all winning teams. Every time they played us they found ways to beat us. Why don't we have one now? We have wealthy young guys who bring their Lego sets to the Clubhouse....WTH!! Maybe these guys are too soft, have too much money and lack competitive fire. Ever seen them get into a fight w another team? Me neither....
Man I really disagree on both managers. I think Alby is fine considering the injs and underperformance of this team.
As for Hyde, he inheritered completey terrible and took them to 101 wins and the AL East sooner than expected. Many of the young guys were playing pretty well on his watch. Over his skis? I didn't see anything close to that.
So if we want to hang our hats on 2023-24. It bears mentioning, how many of the players on that roster were part of the old regime (Santander, Mullins, Mountcastle, Hays, Kramer, etc.). Also, we went from 2018-2022 with a roster full of placeholders and AAAAers vice major leaguers.
I’ve said it before but, from what I understood of the rebuild, it was a stripping of the team, down to the studs, and fundamentally changing the way business in Baltimore was done. Good drafting, better Latin American presence/scouting, and better data management.
Trades: Give credit for trades that brought Bradish to Baltimore for Dylan Bundy. That took guts. But who else? Baz and Rogers are great but both were costly in terms of talent surrendered (and I’d eat my hat if the Marlins wouldn’t have taken Kjerstad instead of Stowers).
Drafting: Adley was great, and I would have picked him too, but let’s be honest, if he hadn’t been drafted first, he’d have been drafted second, so I wouldn’t call that a great feat of scouting. Gunnar? That’s a shot and a score. All 30 other teams passed on him. Same with Westburg. But beyond that, have the Orioles drafted anyone who you could say is performing at a consistently high level? Holliday, Beavers, and Cowser have talent, but are still not living up to expectations. Meanwhile, Kjerstad, Hunneycutt, and Bradfield all appear to be misses.
International scouting: Basallo is a gem. But I would think it takes more than 1 player to be able to to claim the Orioles have parlayed their International operation into a meaningful talent pipeline
Data: Nobody really knows because clubs rightly keep secrets but, IF you believe the Orioles have the talent to compete, the fact they’re not shows other clubs are still a few steps ahead in cracking the analytics code.
At the end, if our “to the studs” rebuild only netted 5 or 6 standout players and only two mediocre playoff runs and now it’s time to start over, I’d say the rebuild was a failure.
Except they inherited well over 100 losses, the studs were already missing, literally I guess we could say. And this is no starting over. Not with Bradish, Baz, Young, Alonso, Gunnar, Basallo and on and on.
We need OF help both with defense and the bat. We need to figure out if Gunnar stays or goes. Solve those 2 things and I think this team will be ready again next year IMO. I will add Holliday is swinging for fence again and pulling off. Needs to get back to what he did a week or 2 ago. Hit other way.
I say give Holliday the rest of this year and let's see. When we judge day by day that can be analysis by paralysis.
I hope you like the taste of your hat because there is no way the Marlins would have taken Kjerstad.
Team is doing what they need to do to get back to playoff baseball. . Added Alonzo and Ward last winter. What we all thought would help. Players underperformed plus injuries caused another tough season. . But that is baseball. . We do still act like a small market team though. . But glad to see an acknowledgment that pitching is important. Tough division but no more excuses. . Is someone lying about the amount of money available? Please no more swing and miss draft picks.
Not at all in fact they spend in the middle of the pack of baseball with more room to grow. You think they gave out 155M to Pete but can't/won't spend? If you are planning on them spending like the LAD or Mets you will always be disappointed however.
The rebuild was sold to fans as perennial contenders. Just to judge since Rutschman was drafted in 2019 it’s been 3 very bad seasons, 3 good seasons, and now 2 bad seasons. Prospects may have been a little overhyped, may be underdeveloped, probably some of both. Development is not linear and when The Core didn’t all turn into playoff success at the same time, someone gets traded. The Core learned a hard lesson but a necessary one. The only way to keep the band together is win.
I don’t see this trade deadline as a rebuild as much as a reset. The rotation is intact. Alonso is still here. Henderson and Holliday are here for another year at least.
I was sold a yearly contender but now have magic playoff spurts mixed with more frequent duds, the same as it ever was.
I don't think you were sold anything. The goal was to be a a perennial contender and build it once. They did built an elite talent pipeline, I know they did, because for a couple of years I covered a first for me in Baltimore - A no. 1 farm. Now that young talent didn't do enough and they took the largest piece and traded him. But this is not starting over despite some insisting it is. We can say anything we want and some fans have over the last 2 days, that doesn't make it so. This is not directed at your comment, but all of them collectively.
I am with you that this trade deadline was not a rebuild. I consider it a reset, so maybe that is semantics for you. I think this team can still contend as is and with the caveat of a couple pieces plus current players simply playing better. Where I will differ from you though is I think Elias did try and convince the fans to follow along during the lean years. My impression was Elias asked for patience, that the liftoff was coming, starting with 1-1 Rutschman. Maybe Elias spoke poorly or I took it wrongly.
But I am here for it. I look forward to following your takes. Have to admit through all the doom and gloom you look at the bright side. It helps keep me sane after social media hot takes.